In this riveting episode, novelist Lionel Shriver joins Stella O'Malley and Mia Hughes to dissect how transgender ideology captured Western institutions with unprecedented speed. With her characteristic bluntness, Shriver explores why some people remain immune to social contagions while society embraces absurd ideas, and considers whether Trump's election might finally mark the end of what she calls "social manias."
About Lionel Shriver
Lionel Shriver is the author of 17 novels including We Need to Talk About Kevin, which won the Orange Prize for Fiction, Big Brother, and her recent novel Mania, which examines social contagions.
Born Margaret Ann, she changed her name to Lionel as a teenager. She describes her childhood as a "reluctant girl" who was "an honorary boy" growing up between two brothers: "We played with trucks and trains in the dirt." This childhood gender nonconformity informs her perspective on today's gender debates.
Exploring Social Manias Through Fiction
Shriver's 2023 novel Mania uses fiction to explore how societies collectively embrace absurd ideas. Set in an alternative 2011, the novel depicts a society suddenly convinced there's no such thing as variable human intelligence, with those who suggest differences labeled "cerebral supremacists."
She created this fictional scenario as a deliberate parallel to gender ideology, explaining that both movements share a fundamental denial of biological reality. Shriver dates the transgender phenomenon to around 2012, noting it was "when it really started taking off."
The Suppression of Dissent
Shriver identifies transgender ideology as the birthplace of modern cancel culture: "The whole growth of cancel culture started with trans. Because that was... That's what got your head cut off." Despite her reputation for boldness, even she felt intimidated into silence until 2016, when she wrote an essay for Prospect magazine.
The conversation explores how humor became a casualty of this enforcement. Stella notes that "jokes became forbidden and all sorts of words you couldn't say. Humor, which is my favorite thing, got risky." They discuss how comedians like Dave Chappelle faced significant backlash for addressing transgender topics in their comedy.
Conformity vs. Independence
Shriver suggests that while many people position themselves as rebels, true independence is rare: "eventually the weirdos rule the world. Ask Elon." She celebrates those who resist groupthink despite social pressure.
She challenges the narrative that transgender identification is brave:
"It's being sold to kids as brave, but it's not brave, it's imitative. It is allowing the freakish obsessions of your era to tempt you into mutilating your body."
She contrasts this with genuine independence of thought:
"I am just constitutionally immune to this kind of contagion, and therefore I have felt left out of multiple social manias. And it's a lonely business."
Beyond Gender: The Politics of Identity
The conversation explores how identity politics has affected governance. Shriver, a self-described "lifelong Democrat" who voted for Biden in 2020, expresses feeling betrayed by his administration's focus on identity-based appointments.
She points to Biden's cabinet selections as emblematic of a deeper problem:
"From the start. All the staff positions, the cabinet, everyone was chosen in terms of identity. And so it was continually announced, oh, this is the first Indian American. This is the first. And nobody ever talked about whether they were qualified."
She contrasts this with her feelings about Trump's recent inauguration:
"While it's not a very good sign for any country that the President has to get up in front of his people and announce that there are only two sexes, male and female... considering where we were, that was an important moment and it was fabulous."
The Aftermath of Social Manias
Shriver predicts how the current ideological movement will end:
"Reliably, once the mania is over, everyone pretends that they weren't into it. I'm convinced that once this whole woke thing is finally over, you're never going to find anybody who claims that was me."
She suggests all social manias eventually collapse under their own contradictions, though often not before causing significant harm.
COVID and Democratic Fragility
Shriver's experience during COVID lockdowns deepened her skepticism about social contagions. She was "one of the first people in the UK" to criticize lockdowns, arguing they were disproportionate.
This experience led to a profound disillusionment with democratic institutions:
"I came to the conclusion in the UK that it would take for National Socialism, Nazi style to be adopted in the UK, I think it would take about three weeks."
Finding Hope in Resistance
Despite these dark observations, Shriver finds hope in figures who have resisted ideological pressure. She credits women like J.K. Rowling, Helen Joyce, and Maya Forstater for breaking the taboo on discussing transgender ideology.
The conversation ends with Shriver acknowledging a growing community of independent thinkers who give her hope "that the human race is not lost."
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