Thank you for this. I have known a few men who have gone down this path to regret it - one with debilitating surgeries that left him in chronic pain and literally needing to wear diapers. One friend committed suicide after years of drug use and transition. When my son decided he was trans at a young age (a teen), watching the videos of the men who detransitioned really resonated with him. There are many reasons that young men want to drastically alter their bodies, or even stop puberty, anything can become a sexual fetish or object of desire, but men can also learn to manage their sexual urges, like it sounds like this man did. There are healthy expressions of one's sexuality that do not require the participation of others to affirm or pretend. And, constantly tinkering with one's healthy body is bound to become an addiction with negative consequences.
This chap may be telling his authentic story, but then you go and put this on to anyone and everyone who has the slightest similarity.
Just like when you tried to press AGP onto me in our conversation. I have never regretted, and my life has turned out fine, actually it has led me into some wonderful experiences and I have made several unique contributions to my local community.
I would like to remind everyone that the vast majority of people who transition are, in fact, trans and do not regret it. Gender affirming care is live saving care. And stories like this are, by no means, a common narrative among trans people.
It’s important to remember that in the end this person was not trans in the first place. And therefore cannot speak to the actual trans experience.
I can see why it is preferable (and less challenging) for some to believe that someone who changed his name and took oestrogen for eight years (quite a big commitment) was never “really” trans in the first place. Thus the narrative for other people is not in any way threatened. What is the alternative? That someone can be really trans as far as anyone is, and then really not, ie to start to suspect that trans is at least partly, maybe even primarily, a belief system and not an innate and immutable physiological or psychological condition. This is not to say that it comes from nothing - but that maybe what is claimed, though genuinely believed, is over reach.
I can understand why it’s easier to think that people on the one side of the fence simply refuse to accept what the other views as simple fact. I believe both sides tend to do this.
Transition is the primary treatment for
gender dysphoria. If transitioning does not help at all, the diagnosis was wrong, and the person was not trans. This does happen. There are people who have body dysmorphia and such who believe they’re trans and are wrong. There are also times when younger people, usually in middle and early high school are exploring who they are. Which is why there are so many rules and boxes to check for minors undergoing any sort of permanent medical transition (surgeries and hormones).
That being said there are also times transitioning works exactly as it should. It effectively treats the dysphoria. And afterward, the pressure to conform and the shame from their personal community can force them to undo that progress. To denounce the idea of “transgender” as wrong or foolish.
Social pressure and isolation are powerful tools for forced conformity. They always have been. They do not prove someone was wrong about who they are. They only show how far a society will go to break those who dared to be different. That is not a failure of transitioning. It is surrender, a lot of times for the sake of survival. Whether through financial dependence, threats of violence, social isolation, or abandonment by family and friends.
My original point remains the same. The same way I cannot speak on what it is to be autistic, ADHD, or Bipolar if I was misdiagnosed as one of them. Someone who is not trans can’t actually speak on the trans experience. Just like someone who was misdiagnosed with a kidney stone cannot accurately describe what it is like to have a kidney stone if they actually had appendicitis instead.
I was hoping to see more critical exploration such as shown to Illy. Glad Stella mentioned that it's a paraphilia which is a block to intimacy. Bret also had a valid point regarding porn. It seems that many of the older transvestites/cross dressers consumed porn.
Points that stood out to me:
1. RAW mentions integrating his feminine self. Two Jungian therapists discuss their Androgyne Theory in a trans publication. (Notice that the trans editors were manipulating the essay.) https://t.co/rGBZkzKtsR Here is the first paragraph:
Some years ago I began working in a
therapeutic way with the androgyne
hypothesis that every human psyche
contains the disposition and
characteristics of both sexes and seeks
to realize them in wholeness . Since
formulating this hypothesis in the
mid-Seventies, I have been able to use
it very successfully in general
therapeutic practice and in groups that
I have led throughout the United
States . These ideas were presented in
1980 in San Diego at a conference on
Androgyny .
2. RAW mentions an obsession with soft things such as women's hosiery. It seems many of these men have an obsession with something, but at some point and for some reason it turns into a maladaptive coping mechanism.
3. RAW mentions that he now has to date bi-sexual woman to be satisfied. I wonder at what age RAW was first introduced to porn and is this really a healthy way to assuage ones sexual desires?
4. RAW mentions that his family was very Christian and quoting the Bible when he was caught wearing women's clothing. We don't know what other "seeds" were planted during his childhood and how those formed his thinking and what he was exposed to online. Other men on BB pod have discussed a relative mentioning a "feminine" trait or wanting to have a daughter vs a son.
5. RAW mentions that one is born with AGP. I know of one sexologist who has pushed back on Blanchard's typology. I'm sure there are others. Perhaps the timing in the zeitgeist is ripe to allow those criticizing the typology to speak out publicly. Would love for Stella to have differing opinions on.
It makes sense that with this medical scandal/cult - one wants to be angry at someone and AGP is the perfect target since they are the activists and perhaps rightly so since they are the ones who have been exhorting those to accept they are "women", even in the past. Until we really understand these men, we won't understand the underlying motives. I would assert that AGP isn't a fully baked theory.
Thank you for this. I have known a few men who have gone down this path to regret it - one with debilitating surgeries that left him in chronic pain and literally needing to wear diapers. One friend committed suicide after years of drug use and transition. When my son decided he was trans at a young age (a teen), watching the videos of the men who detransitioned really resonated with him. There are many reasons that young men want to drastically alter their bodies, or even stop puberty, anything can become a sexual fetish or object of desire, but men can also learn to manage their sexual urges, like it sounds like this man did. There are healthy expressions of one's sexuality that do not require the participation of others to affirm or pretend. And, constantly tinkering with one's healthy body is bound to become an addiction with negative consequences.
Thanks for sharing your story. Hoping to find a way to share it with my child.
What a great and insightful conversation. Many thanks....have him on again.
This chap may be telling his authentic story, but then you go and put this on to anyone and everyone who has the slightest similarity.
Just like when you tried to press AGP onto me in our conversation. I have never regretted, and my life has turned out fine, actually it has led me into some wonderful experiences and I have made several unique contributions to my local community.
No regrets.
I would like to remind everyone that the vast majority of people who transition are, in fact, trans and do not regret it. Gender affirming care is live saving care. And stories like this are, by no means, a common narrative among trans people.
It’s important to remember that in the end this person was not trans in the first place. And therefore cannot speak to the actual trans experience.
I can see why it is preferable (and less challenging) for some to believe that someone who changed his name and took oestrogen for eight years (quite a big commitment) was never “really” trans in the first place. Thus the narrative for other people is not in any way threatened. What is the alternative? That someone can be really trans as far as anyone is, and then really not, ie to start to suspect that trans is at least partly, maybe even primarily, a belief system and not an innate and immutable physiological or psychological condition. This is not to say that it comes from nothing - but that maybe what is claimed, though genuinely believed, is over reach.
I can understand why it’s easier to think that people on the one side of the fence simply refuse to accept what the other views as simple fact. I believe both sides tend to do this.
Transition is the primary treatment for
gender dysphoria. If transitioning does not help at all, the diagnosis was wrong, and the person was not trans. This does happen. There are people who have body dysmorphia and such who believe they’re trans and are wrong. There are also times when younger people, usually in middle and early high school are exploring who they are. Which is why there are so many rules and boxes to check for minors undergoing any sort of permanent medical transition (surgeries and hormones).
That being said there are also times transitioning works exactly as it should. It effectively treats the dysphoria. And afterward, the pressure to conform and the shame from their personal community can force them to undo that progress. To denounce the idea of “transgender” as wrong or foolish.
Social pressure and isolation are powerful tools for forced conformity. They always have been. They do not prove someone was wrong about who they are. They only show how far a society will go to break those who dared to be different. That is not a failure of transitioning. It is surrender, a lot of times for the sake of survival. Whether through financial dependence, threats of violence, social isolation, or abandonment by family and friends.
My original point remains the same. The same way I cannot speak on what it is to be autistic, ADHD, or Bipolar if I was misdiagnosed as one of them. Someone who is not trans can’t actually speak on the trans experience. Just like someone who was misdiagnosed with a kidney stone cannot accurately describe what it is like to have a kidney stone if they actually had appendicitis instead.
I was hoping to see more critical exploration such as shown to Illy. Glad Stella mentioned that it's a paraphilia which is a block to intimacy. Bret also had a valid point regarding porn. It seems that many of the older transvestites/cross dressers consumed porn.
Points that stood out to me:
1. RAW mentions integrating his feminine self. Two Jungian therapists discuss their Androgyne Theory in a trans publication. (Notice that the trans editors were manipulating the essay.) https://t.co/rGBZkzKtsR Here is the first paragraph:
Some years ago I began working in a
therapeutic way with the androgyne
hypothesis that every human psyche
contains the disposition and
characteristics of both sexes and seeks
to realize them in wholeness . Since
formulating this hypothesis in the
mid-Seventies, I have been able to use
it very successfully in general
therapeutic practice and in groups that
I have led throughout the United
States . These ideas were presented in
1980 in San Diego at a conference on
Androgyny .
2. RAW mentions an obsession with soft things such as women's hosiery. It seems many of these men have an obsession with something, but at some point and for some reason it turns into a maladaptive coping mechanism.
3. RAW mentions that he now has to date bi-sexual woman to be satisfied. I wonder at what age RAW was first introduced to porn and is this really a healthy way to assuage ones sexual desires?
4. RAW mentions that his family was very Christian and quoting the Bible when he was caught wearing women's clothing. We don't know what other "seeds" were planted during his childhood and how those formed his thinking and what he was exposed to online. Other men on BB pod have discussed a relative mentioning a "feminine" trait or wanting to have a daughter vs a son.
5. RAW mentions that one is born with AGP. I know of one sexologist who has pushed back on Blanchard's typology. I'm sure there are others. Perhaps the timing in the zeitgeist is ripe to allow those criticizing the typology to speak out publicly. Would love for Stella to have differing opinions on.
It makes sense that with this medical scandal/cult - one wants to be angry at someone and AGP is the perfect target since they are the activists and perhaps rightly so since they are the ones who have been exhorting those to accept they are "women", even in the past. Until we really understand these men, we won't understand the underlying motives. I would assert that AGP isn't a fully baked theory.